Posts by not a captive

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

Jehovah killed Jesus?

26

Why are all religions (including J.W.'s) afraid to perform the "Elijah test" recorded at 1 Kings 18:21-39?

by StoneWall in

to set the stage this was were elijah had the people gathered together at mt.carmel,along with the.

450 prophets of baal and the 400 prophets of the sacred pole.

it was a test to prove to the people .

not a captive

I jumped in with both feet here when I shouldn't have.

You know and I know that there is every reason to believe that whatever "real" events took place in the history of the children of Abraham they are like artifacts that have been removed from the site in whiich they were discovered, wire brushed, sanded and covered with polyurethane. They are not particularly compelling and may not be trusted for detailed information.

On the other hand, the love of Jesus does compel me more than any of these stories. people I know who deride religion in general, Christianity in particular and especially the Bible stories, they don't laugh at Jesus.

Since I disassociated I have been readjusting my points of reference, generally overhauliing what my faith does consist of and why. The Witnesses were miserably pedantic on every topic and choked the life out of so many of us. There is research and then there are idle entertainments. Sometimes they are nearly the same. I can do that so easily.

I regret responding to this post. I have no dog in this fight. (Well, not exactly. I'll call him back and salve his wounds.) Right now I've got to go water my mustard seed.

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

MadJ, How are you? I thought you had abandoned the post.

How many times do I have to say--There is no question that Abraham decided at some point that God wanted Isaac dead. But if the test were merely to see IF Abraham would try to kill Isaac then why have the ram around afterward? I repeat:LOOK AT THE WTS OWN TEACHING ON JEPHTHAH'S VOW in the Insight Books. I followed the WT guidelines for study using proper references. They didn't like the conclusion even though it is in harmony with what Jesus has taught and what Jehovah says of himself. I believe that I should witness for God not warp the Truth to conform to fallible books and magazines. The brothers could not toss me out without throwing out the reference materials that informed me--or changing a word in the original text. The Branch told me that they knew the words were not interchangeable. If I was in a rock and a hard place, so were they.

Did Jehovah want to prove that as God he could break all the scriptures and then convince you that he never had broken his own guidelines? That is the version of reality you are advocating along with the WTS.

MadJ, please address these points.

19

How did you treat people?

by captain in

jw
friends

do you ever feel guilty about the way you pre-judged others when you were a drone?.

i feel guilty about it every day!

people's lives are so complex, we know so little of their personal struggles and "thorns in the flesh" yet we're conditioned to prejudge on a checklist of criteria published by a few men in new york.

not a captive

I love you, Peaches.

26

Why are all religions (including J.W.'s) afraid to perform the "Elijah test" recorded at 1 Kings 18:21-39?

by StoneWall in

to set the stage this was were elijah had the people gathered together at mt.carmel,along with the.

450 prophets of baal and the 400 prophets of the sacred pole.

it was a test to prove to the people .

not a captive

Also, another point. Jesus said he wouldn't put God to a test gratuitously-- as when challenged to prove he was a son of God by throwing himself off a high place.

26

Why are all religions (including J.W.'s) afraid to perform the "Elijah test" recorded at 1 Kings 18:21-39?

by StoneWall in

to set the stage this was were elijah had the people gathered together at mt.carmel,along with the.

450 prophets of baal and the 400 prophets of the sacred pole.

it was a test to prove to the people .

not a captive

Good question StoneWall. It seems (I say seems, because I am searching too. Or maybe you aren't searching?)Mark 9, Luke 9, Matthew 17 all relate a story of the demonized boy that the disciples are unable to help. The father of the boy asks help from Jesus and Jesus asks the man "do you have faith that I can do this?" The man says "Yes, but not enough. Help me out where I lack faith." Jesus heals the boy, the disciples ask about their failure to be effective. He tells them with some disgust (after all the boy's father was more honest than they were) that it is their lack of faith and prayer that holds them back. It seems that Jesus deals generously with us if we are honest about our situation in the faith department.

Thomas may have been like Gideon who seemed to have a healthy dose of realism in his doubt also. I have wondered if the fleece with Gideon and the nail & spear wounds for Thomas were because they didn't want self-delusion to overtake them. I gather that where there is a measure of faith we can ask for more--and receive it. With no penalty. But if we are really cynical we may have to reflect on the matter before we receive an answer as in the case of Zachariah, John the Baptist's father.

Just things I've wondered about also. Maeve

40

Adherence to FALSE TEACHINGS required of Jehovah's people: Scottish Court Case transcripts confirm

by Terry in

in 1954 a controversial court case, douglas walsh vs. the right honorable james latham clyde, m.p.c.

was held in scotland to determine.

if jehovah's witnesses should be exempt from military service and granted status as "ordained ministers".. what is of outstanding interest is that testimony in this trial is extraordinarily revealing.

not a captive

Amazing to see this transcript. If that had been laid out when I started my Bible "study" with the Witnesses it would have ended then.

Not having the clergy be the only ones who could "know the truth" is what was the trade mark that they brought to the door. They told us that we would be free of that oppression--THEY didn't have a clergy, we could see for ourselves what the words said. What a terrific lie. I've never been around a religion that was more controlling of every thought or action.

Thanks for posting this. I'll spread the word of this transcript as far as I can. Maeve

1

Why Shunning is as Far Away from Christianity As You Can Get

by sabastious in

[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><!

[endif][if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:latentstyles deflockedstate="false" latentstylecount="156"> </w:latentstyles> </xml><!

[endif][if !mso]> <object classid="clsid:38481807-ca0e-42d2-bf39-b33af135cc4d" id=ieooui> </object> <mce:style><!

not a captive

You got it, Sab.

26

Why are all religions (including J.W.'s) afraid to perform the "Elijah test" recorded at 1 Kings 18:21-39?

by StoneWall in

to set the stage this was were elijah had the people gathered together at mt.carmel,along with the.

450 prophets of baal and the 400 prophets of the sacred pole.

it was a test to prove to the people .

not a captive

Didn't Jesus say that "a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah."?

127

LOVE your ENEMIES: where Jesus goes wrong

by Terry in

matthew 5:44 "but i say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,.

luke 6:35 "but love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return.

the most radical teaching attributed to jesus has implications if followed.. an invading hoarde of mongols would not be resisted.. a christian husband would not only allow his wife and daughters to be raped; he would be compelled to forgive the rapist, pray for him and offer.

not a captive

I believe Jesus said that we are to love our enemies as we love our neighbors. We make anyone in need our neighbor by rendering help when it falls to our hand to do it. Apparently that neighbor can be a person who has been or is our enemy. All these are his teachings.

And Jesus said "No greater love has no man than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."

I've given this some thought because of the soldiers I've known. The war stories I've heard. I've given this a lot of thought because we have had some violence in our family. Sometimes theology in these instances involves calling the authorities. Friend and foe are not always easy to discern. Sometimes a measure of physical contact is the only way to show love. There is a lot of adrenaline pumping. And jail.

And there are times I believe that if we can love our husbands we can love anybody.

So without hashing this around too much I will say that Jesus didn't get it wrong. I am always re-calibrating my perspective on my own worth versus people whose behaviors disturb or anger me. I remember some of the disgusting things I've done and the people I've hurt. The mistakes I've made. But over time the counsel Jesus gave has brought a measure of healing to some bad, very bad situations.

That said, I think the ultimate test is when a life is on the line. I have wondered if at Abraham's test the question came up: Are you really there God? Have I simply been delusional? I have imagined Abraham and Isaac talking as they piled one rock on another and seeing there was no lamb around but Isaac--I wondered if they just said "Screw it , let's do this thing. If he isn't there then there isn't any point in any of this mess anyway." So I think like that.

Same with Jesus at Gethsemane. In such a world of beauty it must seem silly to sweat blood over the idea of Truth but this world is also a world full of hurt.I do not believe in false hope having any value. I really love being alive a lot of the time. And more now since I am free of the Witness Organization. But I am determined to find out what I can of what life is supposed to be.

I do believe that God is love; I don't believe that I have got that love thoroughly integrated into myself. I want to cast out that fear of there being no redress for wrongs, no healing mercy.

If the occasion presented itself in a way as obvious as Abraham's or Jesus'-- that it was time to put up or shut up-- I might sweat blood too. But I would have to go for it. I think there is a larger meaning in the expression " In the mountain of Jehovah it will be provided."

Thanks for asking, Terry. You ask good questions and I appreciate you not letting me get by with a cheap answer. Maeve